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Post by rhodesiansneverdie on Jan 27, 2015 12:10:03 GMT
I have a couple of theories, they're pretty batshit but anyway:
1. All the other games would of been BTFO
East vs West would of featured everything from every paradox game, ruler mechanics, economy, pops, HoI3 warfare, and as well as that it would of also been the longest Paradox game (In terms of "turns" not years) so to put it simply it would of been like every single thing Paradox had in one convenient package, there'd of been no point buying any of the others a part from novelty because they wouldn't even come close to EvW.
2. The mechanics weren't simple enough
It's clear to see in EU4 and HoI4 that Paradox want to make dumb games for casuals who will give them money, a niche game like EvW wouldn't of sold very well on the mass appeal market so Paradox wouldn't get even nearly as much money as if they had just made it a mana filled, three party game, East vs West was to be the last "true" grand strategy game aimed at real fans, not the sheep who buy their current crap.
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71 posts
Skills: Historical Research, Writing Events/Decisions, Modding Countries/Leaders
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Post by Medibee on Jan 27, 2015 12:59:18 GMT
While those sound nice, I think the sad reality is that the team just wasn't making enough progress in the time that paradox wanted. But canceling it so close to completion right after saying that they were going to let the community fund it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Apparently many of the devs were blindsided and only learned of the cancelation when we did.
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50 posts
Skills: Historical Research, Writing Events/Decisions, Finding Bugs, Economic Balancing
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Post by warsmith17 on Jan 27, 2015 13:52:26 GMT
While those sound nice, I think the sad reality is that the team just wasn't making enough progress in the time that paradox wanted. But canceling it so close to completion right after saying that they were going to let the community fund it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Apparently many of the devs were blindsided and only learned of the cancelation when we did. I'm guessing this was it, ultimately the game was delayed, and quite probably over budget. The whole project reeks of feature creep as well, I'm guessing it was originally intended to be something fairly small, and just steadily grew bigger. The devs, judging by their forum posts seem to have been having trouble prioritizing, leading me to believe that there was no strong vision. Here is where it isn't there fault, they started with the HOI 3 Semper Fi as the code base, which was highly buggy and caused problems from the start. Next PDX raised release standards post CKII which I'm sure damaged them as well. What angers me was the retracted promise of an open beta, I can see why they shied away from it, but that idea should never have been put forward and allowed to build up steam, unless they were 100% behind it. That aspect of it smacks of poor decision making, and lack of oversight. It was the cancellation following that announcement that left me with a bad taste in my mouth. |
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Post by interested party on Jan 27, 2015 16:08:50 GMT
Why dont you try asking some of the developers, I have and found an answer that may surprise some, but alas that is a private convo. I though will say that PI and PDS knew that the source code that they were working on was horrible and the fact that they are now simplifying games to hit a numb crowd just tells you were the company is going... I hope you all will take time to fix this game where possible and hopefully get it to work. I though have heard from a creditable source that fixing this game is like wishing on salt, So best wishes... Also, PDS/PI going the way they are with games, hopefully will open up better game developers in the indie development scene to do better than them, even if their first releases are "basic 4x"  |
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Post by alpha2518 on Jan 28, 2015 2:00:54 GMT
Why dont you try asking some of the developers, I have and found an answer that may surprise some, but alas that is a private convo. I though will say that PI and PDS knew that the source code that they were working on was horrible and the fact that they are now simplifying games to hit a numb crowd just tells you were the company is going... I hope you all will take time to fix this game where possible and hopefully get it to work. I though have heard from a creditable source that fixing this game is like wishing on salt, So best wishes... Also, PDS/PI going the way they are with games, hopefully will open up better game developers in the indie development scene to do better than them, even if their first releases are "basic 4x" Simplifying the games isn't always a bad thing as you cannot keep appealing to a niche market as it grows smaller and smaller. Besides this is a good thing as the bar is lowered for more people to become interested in grand strategy games which I enjoy and want to see the community of such games get bigger. It also helps people like myself help get into the more in depth wargames because there are so many out there not at our level that we want to get into but are struggling too. Or in my case, I just can't fucking find one that I like until recently as i stumbled upon a few like Battle Academy to help get me into more in depth ones. Also sometimes we don't want to speed hours and hours on end just trying to fight for one province or a small portion of the map like in those in depth games because we may not just simply have the time to do so |
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Post by rhodesiansneverdie on Jan 28, 2015 3:59:28 GMT
Simplifying the games isn't always a bad thing as you cannot keep appealing to a niche market as it grows smaller and smaller. Besides this is a good thing as the bar is lowered for more people to become interesed and strategy games which I enjoy and want to see the community of such games get bigger. But the question is at what point do these stop being grand strategy games and become just a map and mana, sure it'd be great if more people were interested in grand strategy games but EU4 is hardly a grand strategy game, ditto for HoI4, CK2 is sort of inbetween the two, Paradox aren't interested in making niche grand strategy games, they want to suck as much money out of casuals as they can and the way they do that is making the games for monkeys and focusing on pretty graphics rather than gameplay. |
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Post by interested party on Jan 28, 2015 9:41:53 GMT
Simplifying the games isn't always a bad thing as you cannot keep appealing to a niche market as it grows smaller and smaller. Besides this is a good thing as the bar is lowered for more people to become interesed and strategy games which I enjoy and want to see the community of such games get bigger. But the question is at what point do these stop being grand strategy games and become just a map and mana, sure it'd be great if more people were interested in grand strategy games but EU4 is hardly a grand strategy game, ditto for HoI4, CK2 is sort of inbetween the two, Paradox aren't interested in making niche grand strategy games, they want to suck as much money out of casuals as they can and the way they do that is making the games for monkeys and focusing on pretty graphics rather than gameplay. I completely agree with this and that is why I have decided to make my own game engine and games. I will make things for true 4x and GSG fans, but will also have it accessible from the get go. Understand me when I say I have always thought of making games since I played imperialism and colonization as a kid... 4x games shouldnt end at what 1800s... As per now we dont know everything and continue to learn about the planet earth itself too. So with that said, I can honestly state that 4x games can go into this "era" without an issue. With all that said and done, there has to be documentation and also tooltips to help novice/beginners understand games. That I do understand, but mana points, shiney maps, 3d rendered units, etc are not to help understand a game... Mana points were the death of PI as a respectable GSG producer. Even this EL Dorato DLC is completely useless. Honestly they are trying to squeeze more money out of the casuals and go away from historical plausiblity and go into the realm of fantasy. I like games that stick with historical Plausibility as they are better 88% of the time than games that go out of wack. Look at any of the major game series, civ etc... Do they go with the grain of plausible history or do they completely reject it? Sad to state this, but once a company starts going into fantasy games like PI has with this last DLC, it spells the death of those games. The question that started this was what caused this game to die in production... 1. Is it fantasy geared or history? History geared check 2. Is it going to have multiple DLCS? Possibly no check 3. Is it the brain child of any PDS employee? No Check 4. Is it going to do more than PDS games? Yes check 5. Is it going to be more plausible history? Yes Check 6. Is it going to raise the bar for PDS Games? Yes Check Right there tells you why... PDS didnt want to have a new standard to go by and imposed their own on the dev team. Thus the game was cancelled due to the restrictions put on the dev team. (not completely accurate but best guess as to what started it all). Thus EvW was cancelled and now we have Fantasy land with Mana points and Pretty DLCs. Honestly who would by a game that went from actually having money in it matter, to a game that doesnt have money at all for economy or anything(HOI4 comes to mind)? Who would buy a DLC that allows you to create fantasy nations and leaders(El Dorato DLC)? Whats next? Will they make it where anything of significance can happen to every country? Like say, Requisition in spain be in say england or morraco or turkey? How far is to far? I say for me personally they have went far and beyond the line with EU4. I dont know about you all but I will NEVER pay Full price for a PDS game again. Just like I dont buy EA games anymore. I have decided that PDS has lost base with its true hardcore fans and is wanting nothing more than money to fill its coffers. I mean honestly they create games simple so they dont have buggy releases, BO HO... Really, thats what makes the releases less buggy??? UMMMMM Dont think so, your games are coming out like a bad plague and your patches are doing worse. I mean really, Does anyone pay attention to any of the forums at all on their forums? There is still bugs from the getgo that are not fixed because they are adding more and more things. I hope this makes you all really think about the developers and look at what I have stated. Many people are getting fed up with them but with them gaining the casual crowd, things will not get better for US. I am sorry to speak for those of US that have been fans since EU2, Victoria 1, HOI2 days but its the truth. How many of US do you really say they are happy with games that are coming out? Are we not the most vocal opposition to this new way of doing games? If Others that are in the same group I am, dont agree... I apologize for stating that you do, but from looking at the forums I would state that more do. I cant really advertise anything about my own projects, thats why I dont give out info on here. I have a few more years to go before I can state I have truly a decent engine to do any game with, but I am working on it. Difference in me and PDS is I am one person trying to make games that actually have some historical significance that isnt just something you can mod out or throw away if people dont like it. I understand why they dont put concentration camps and POWs but honestly that makes war less and less human. Without the Realities of war we are doomed to repeat them. "To Erase the existance of the camps would cause a future generation to remake the same mistakes" paraphased quote. I am a Veteran of my countries military. I know the cost paid and have paid a partial cost. Thus where is the WIA, MIA, KIA, POW, disabled veterans in these games? Honestly in PDS games, they ignore the realities of war to sell sell sell. Yes there are some things that can be softened to make it more accessable to others, but how far is too far with that? The holocaust was a major reason that the USA started embargoing Germany and Italy. Where is that in HOI? Where is the Passenger liners that were attacked by the Uboats? Where is the liberation of Concentration Camps and POW camps? Where is the Wounded in Action coming home to their home country and Joining the Industrial Effort? Where is the USA not needing anything from other countries really? The USA had/has enough resources to fuel a wartime economy 8 times over and a secondary wartime economy at the same time. Where is that in the games? I mean really IF every man/woman went into industry and created miltary, civilian, exportable goods, etc the USA would have NO imports at all but for money or debt. That is how the USA helped the allies in WW2. Great Britain on its own could have survived anything the germans threw at them. France had enough consumer products to export to all its colonies and sell to other countries. Switzerland was known to hide government money and individual money... Still today they practice it. The USSR had the vastness of siberia to colonize fully and industrialize. Honestly if you look at the games in this light, what does it make you feel? There is no game that models the transition of any country/empire/people into a major world power. Why is that? Honestly I think that people really arent interested anymore on what makes countries great but rather what makes them great. JFK once said, "Do not ask what this country can do for you but what you can do for this country." Why did he state that? Was he into this new ideal that the individual is better than the collective? Honestly I believe we are entering an "era" of "me". I want to apologize for the rants and off topics. All of these things though are important topics that do need to be discussed. The "era of me" has caused more games to be cancelled than the "collective mentality." I also wanted to state some of the things that disappoint me in PDS themselves. I hope I didnt bore anyone and hope that people really think before they respond to me. I honestly did this post to make people really think about games and themselves... Interested Party |
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Post by FOARP on Feb 18, 2015 3:47:07 GMT
While those sound nice, I think the sad reality is that the team just wasn't making enough progress in the time that paradox wanted. But canceling it so close to completion right after saying that they were going to let the community fund it leaves a bad taste in my mouth. Apparently many of the devs were blindsided and only learned of the cancelation when we did. I'm guessing this was it, ultimately the game was delayed, and quite probably over budget. The whole project reeks of feature creep as well, I'm guessing it was originally intended to be something fairly small, and just steadily grew bigger. The devs, judging by their forum posts seem to have been having trouble prioritizing, leading me to believe that there was no strong vision. Here is where it isn't there fault, they started with the HOI 3 Semper Fi as the code base, which was highly buggy and caused problems from the start. Next PDX raised release standards post CKII which I'm sure damaged them as well. What angers me was the retracted promise of an open beta, I can see why they shied away from it, but that idea should never have been put forward and allowed to build up steam, unless they were 100% behind it. That aspect of it smacks of poor decision making, and lack of oversight. It was the cancellation following that announcement that left me with a bad taste in my mouth. The crowd funding decision really was a massive mistake. The should have just cancelled the game rather than rely on crowd funding to fund a project that still needed ~12 months to properly finish, and likely would have just resulted in dissappinted customers. |
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Post by jahwahl7myarweahoal on Mar 9, 2015 15:53:10 GMT
just gave it a go and after 6 years it slowed to a crawl, and my computer is not low end.
still, really, deeply enjoyable while it lasted though. if they could find a way to transfer all the "surface elements" that is the game to a different engine, it would be fantastic.
as for this release though, it is pretty much like sword of the stars 2. sword of the stars 2, the longer you play, with lots of enemy ai, starts crashing at the end of every turn.
i don't blame paradox for sticking with crusader kings 2 and eu4. CK2 is always fun, but eu iv is not that fun and hoi3 has become a chore to play. i wish they had instead invested properly into EvW as one of their own games, rather than basing it on a dodgy engine.
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Post by jahwahl7myarweahoal on Mar 9, 2015 16:17:19 GMT
I like what you guys have done with the game but if I was modding it I'de be wary.
The game probably could be fixed after years of dedication (and a lot of hobbyists have done things like recreate or reskin entire games), but in this cases usually they're not openly breaching copyright.
It seems like Pdox is not interested in pursuing legal action because it has already got so much flak from the community for the cancellation. However, if they perceive the mod as hurting their interests even more, then perhaps they will pursue legal action.
This is the first result that comes up on google for me when searching east vs west leaked. It won't be hard for them to find and monitor it. Therefore I hope you take whatever necessary precautions you might consider necessary.
Love the game - buggy though it is. Best of luck!
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